tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7503414687298565438.post7842520316336792772..comments2024-03-16T09:26:42.761+11:00Comments on South of the Border - a South Melbourne Hellas blog: In defence of 'old soccer'Paulhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07844708719537648292noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7503414687298565438.post-25111070032121217452013-11-06T09:38:52.854+11:002013-11-06T09:38:52.854+11:00Fair response, and I thank you for it. It was unex...Fair response, and I thank you for it. It was unexpected as your opinion does not require defence. It was clearly well considered and reasoned.<br /><br />I have no trouble with any of that and agree, as I tried to indicate in my earlier response, that I did agree with some of the assertions about racism.<br /><br />In terms of focusing "fight back against the blind burial of 'old soccer' as representing everything from WW2 to 2004" I couldn’t agree more - but the 'wicked question' for the club (and others) will be how to best achieve this. It will take the wisdom of Solomon in my view as the history/commercial 'pincer' is a difficult one.<br /><br />Regardless, I hope the club, if it has not already (I am not an active participant in its politics) can develop a clear vision about what it wants to be and go about implementing it without an identity crisis that hijacks the strategy. <br /><br />In my view it should be to aim for 'top flight' inclusion and silverware as our ambition will ultimately destroy us if we don't give ourselves the very best chance at realisation. I accept however that others may have a different view and either don’t believe the 'apple is worth the gut ache' - or the 'the road to glory is one paved with the blood of our enemies'.<br /><br />Thank you for your writing. I will, for now, ignore the abuse from my mate above (who I think is stalking me on Facebook also?) although it is getting tiring. A commitment to truth is inconsistent with such behaviour.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07222550217923312852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7503414687298565438.post-63573607216235584442013-10-29T13:38:31.248+11:002013-10-29T13:38:31.248+11:00So, another (of the ever increasing) opinion piece...So, another (of the ever increasing) opinion piece talking about the inclusion of South at the expense of Heart (or a merger or takeover.. probably the same thing).<br /><br />There is an irony playing out in Australia at the moment in regard to people of Greek background. We have detached ourselves from our clubs of origin (South, Heidelberg, Olympic, West Adelaide) to quite a large extent over the last 15-20 years (the NSL --> A League moment being the most evident point along the chronological line).<br /><br />Yet, we have become very affluent. Just look at the domination of Greek clubs in the VPL. This affluence has reached a point where we could quite easily take over the Heart (and if it wasn't just a South bid, and was a conglomerate the offer could have been at least double). <br /><br />Yet, who would support them? I would be very reticent. What sort of club would it be? I like my club as it is. I am not sure if I would like what it could end up being.<br /><br />Savvas TzionisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7503414687298565438.post-52985398368564757652013-10-29T12:42:38.407+11:002013-10-29T12:42:38.407+11:00Justin, I'll accept that the first paragraph m...Justin, I'll accept that the first paragraph may be something of a generalisation and that obviously it doesn't speak to every single last football fan in Australia any more than saying "all Liberals voters are..." or "all Greenies..." - but there's almost 10 years of examples archived across the internet of A-League fans recycling the same thinly veiled racial tripe over and over again.<br /><br />If you want to take the opening paragraph as meaning every single person who steps foot into an A-League game in Australia every week then you are bang on correct that it does not compute, but the point is about broader attitudes. It's about kids who 18 now and have NFI what the NSL was other than grainy highlights on YouTube and the horror stories that they're fed by people who may or may not have actually been there before 2004.<br /><br />I'll leave the claim of homophobia to one side, but if you want to see the "antiquated racial notions" which people hold about ethnic clubs you just have to look at any article that suggests they let 'us' in to 'their' league. <br /><br />I can't suggest that it's the FFA's position on anything more than a hunch because it's never been put to the test publicly, but I can say with confidence that it's a view held by plenty of fans and influencers like the media. Whether that's 10, 20, 50 or 90 per cent we'll never know unless somebody does a survey (and how I would love them to do a survey..) but it's something that is trotted out again, and again, and again.<br /><br />I don't know whether it's an actual assumption that all Europeans would bring to the league would be death and destruction, or whether it's a subconscious smokescreen to try and protect 'their' ownership of the game (and let's be fair, what is there to worry about if you're a Victory fan? They've got this town sealed up now) but the view is out there that ethnic team in equals carnage - and as I said above it doesn't make any sense.<br /><br />The point - if we exclude the many areas in which we are clearly at odds and concentrate on one that we might agree on - is that it's time to fight back against the blind burial of 'old soccer' as representing everything from WW2 to 2004. To respond and demand evidence from the people who roll out these tired stereotypes, who play down the (rare) trouble in their own game as being nothing much while also kicking the ethnic clubs to death for perceived crimes.<br /><br />(Incidentally I did a Google search for the exact term "old nsl days" and there are 51,400 results - but admittedly about half of the small sample that I looked at were lamenting its loss for various reasons).Adam 1.0http://supermercadoproject.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7503414687298565438.post-74217753794484126802013-10-29T11:52:06.874+11:002013-10-29T11:52:06.874+11:00"But I will say that I've heard enough ga..."But I will say that I've heard enough garbage from enough people about the old days - whether they were there or not - to think that there's a certain level of cynicism about new football that's entirely justifiable".<br /><br />I absolutely agree. I certainly don't wish to argue that there are not people who have a convenient, ill informed, even self-serving and/or racist view of the history of our game. I accept that and have experienced it. <br /><br />However, it is not true of all Australian football fans (or indeed its administrators as a 'class' of persons). That is why I cannot accept the contention that "The truly unique thing about Australian soccer fans is that they’re one of the few groups to despise the history of their own sport". <br /><br />This collective assertion is simply not sustainable. It commits the sin of collective punishment for individual crimes - an approach so often, and rightly, criticised by fans of our game.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07222550217923312852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7503414687298565438.post-75441038832098539662013-10-29T11:40:01.953+11:002013-10-29T11:40:01.953+11:00Some Australian soccer fans reject their history, ...Some Australian soccer fans reject their history, some despise it - most others put it in a box in the attic and bring it out only on special occasions, or when it's convenient. <br /><br />The forgetting of Australian soccer history is a feature of our sport, as detailed by Ian Syson. Current attitudes neglect the NSL and the ethnic past. The migrant boom neglected and forgot the game's pre-war history. Time and again new soccer clubs in regional towns mistakenly believed that they were the first soccer club in their town or area.<br /><br />While the FFA can not explicitly come out and say South Melbourne (for example) can't gain an A-league licence because of its ethnicity, its dogwhistling - see old soccer/new football for example, a rhetorical creation they came up with (among others) - has done the job for them. The soccer media has also been complicit in this area (English and non-English language), especially when they stopped hedging their bets about the A-League.<br /><br />As the author of this post has pointed out, along with Joe Gorman before him, any time an attempt is made to show a continuity of the past with the present, there is a very loud, and very prominent demographic ready and willing to launch vitriolic and racist rhetoric denouncing the past. Even Andrew How's article on the FFA site arguing for the merging of NSL and A-League stats was littered with hate speech directed at the NSL and its ethnic clubs. This from people who have lost nothing and gained so much, not from people forced onto the fringes of the game - though you would perhaps argue that rather than being forced, they've made a choice.<br /><br />If you find that your experience of soccer fandom differs from this version, I'm not going to argue that point, because I don't doubt that there are people who share those experiences. After all, I have met them. But I will say that I've heard enough garbage from enough people about the old days - whether they were there or not - to think that there's a certain level of cynicism about new football that's entirely justifiable, provided the associated critiques don't go off into lala land - and I don't think this post does. Then again, I have been called an A-League nihilist, so maybe I'm not in the best position to make unbiased judgements on these issues. Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03206486881622385464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7503414687298565438.post-85256946695821348362013-10-29T10:25:07.737+11:002013-10-29T10:25:07.737+11:00"The truly unique thing about Australian socc..."The truly unique thing about Australian soccer fans is that they’re one of the few groups to despise the history of their own sport."<br /><br />This opening contention cannot be sustained. As such I refused to engage with it last night when I first saw it on twitter, but its presentation here (an implied endorsement for a site I respect) changed my mind. <br /><br />My view is that the opening contention cannot be sustained because it is as vitriolic as any made by those firmly in either the "old soccer" or "new football" camps. It is a shame, because thousands of NSL (and now VPL) members/fans like myself who attend A-League games confirm - the future of football can be integrated with its history and is every day by a great many people. <br /><br />I do accept however that this integration is not for everyone. If one chooses not to participate in the A-League from a sense of hurt, it does not follow that others cannot and do not. I know from experience that many do. I do, and I am surrounded in my seats and both Etihad Stadium and AAMI Park by generations of football fans - literally three generations. Most (not just some, or many) of these are from a group often described as 'traditional football communities' (read southern and eastern European). A description itself ignorant of the contribution made to the birth and development of the game by various northern and western European peoples in Australian since the 1870's. Ethnicity aside (it is irrelevant frankly) a great time is had by all these people, but among the older ones we spend our time recollecting our history in the game and it doesn’t even occur to us for a moment that our long stories are anything other than reflective of the normal ‘ebbing and flowing’ of life. ‘Things change’ seems to be the unspoken and accepted view of the world and Australian football’s place in it.<br /><br />I do agree however that the Heart expansion was a poor one, but I refuse to blame the owners or fans for this in an indulgent attack on people seeking to make something of football and simply participate. This was a mistake of the FFA's making in the context of a World Cup bid gone wrong. Homophobic claims of the "pansiest nickname in sport" aside, a South Melbourne Heart licence would clearly be superior to the current offering if sufficient capital is found. Claims of racial exclusion are extraordinary though, and as such, require extraordinary evidence. I am yet to see any evidence for “antiquated racial notions” excluding South Melbourne FC from holding an A-League license (somewhat curiously, the very idea of a league ‘license’ is anathema to many of my fellow South Melbourne fans). That all said, I hope for South Melbourne FC to be represented in the top flight again in place of Melbourne Heart FC. I hope so because South Melbourne FC will be a higher quality football offering and the fans of this club (old, new and ‘returning’) will have much to be proud of as they contribute to football’s future.<br /><br />I also have a problem with the idea that it is useful to simply sit on the sidelines attacking football fans who are fighting new fights in a new context with a new generation of administrators. I am sorry, this doesn’t cut it either. I disagree with the naive politics of some of the active fan groups around the A-League, but I do think some of their concerns are legitimate and should not be so lightly dismissed as lacking legitimacy. If only their leadership was able to better represent these concerns, but they borrow from outdated models of football activism, models as relevant today as the decaying stadiums and corrupt leagues in which many of them were originally developed. A certain quote from Pope John Paul II comes to mind.<br /><br />There is so much to like about what this author says for me to have not read it - so I am very glad I did. Ultimately however, my challenge to him is to get involved or accept that he, himself, is responsible for his disengagement. A personal choice taken and a personal reality handcrafted. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07222550217923312852noreply@blogger.com